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#1 by mbhopp on August 15, 2010 - 8:10 pm
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There’s always some idiot who votes Ron Paul’s video down…like someone once said “there’s always one in every crowd”
#2 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 15, 2010 - 8:21 pm
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@snowwolf7777 Only if the purchaser of the TV demands it. And if warranty is withheld, the purchaser assumes risk. Just like the big boys…except of course that government allows or assists in big corporation theft/malfeasance. Enron was a case in point, though many of your ‘kind’ think it was lack of regulation that allowed the Enron fiasco. Quite the opposite.
Unfortunately, the layers of bad policy are thick and the masses will never really understand what caused what. We are sliding..
#3 by snowwolf7777 on August 15, 2010 - 8:24 pm
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@jimmyjoe1975 yes, but it would be nice to prove to your neighbor that your TV works and has warranty, personally individual transactions is below the federal and state government. I’m talking about industry and massive business.
#4 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 15, 2010 - 8:44 pm
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@snowwolf7777 I just don’t think that everyone needs to understand the ins/outs of my selling a used tv to my neighbor. Yes, I do extrapolate that large corporations wheeling and dealing crappy pieces of paper. The same can be said for free speech…when some entity has the power to draw the line, eventually we all lose.
Of course my point of corporations shuffling trillions of dollars around is again only enabled by the coercive government MANDATED fiat currency.
#5 by snowwolf7777 on August 15, 2010 - 9:43 pm
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@crispymidget The rich get it too easy in America, they have, cooperate welfare and they can dodge the income tax by set up in the Cayman Islands.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate the rich and don’t want to punish them, I only want them to pay their fair in taxes like the rest of us. This is because if they control the majority of the wealth then they can do what ever they want. They can buy the government with lobbyist to gain access to our tax dollars and spend it for their own means.
#6 by snowwolf7777 on August 15, 2010 - 10:41 pm
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@crispymidget Socialism is a 20th century ideology. I’m just arguing against having all the wealth controlled by a certain group. One thing Adam Smith and Karl Marx both agreed on is that when all the wealth is centered with a single group then it because Tyranny. That’s why they invented or created their economic ideas. Adam Smith want the wealth to be in the market to be divide among the business and traders. Marx believed since everyone contributes , it should belong to everyone.
#7 by crispymidget on August 15, 2010 - 11:21 pm
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@snowwolf7777 tax the rich to provide for us?? hmm sounds socialist. nope. none of that.
#8 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 12:07 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 It’s my philosophy as a liberal that I should respect everyone that has their own views and opinions, and that getting angry at them over it is a childish response at best.
I understand, but that why I argue transparency between the CEO, the Union and the Government. They must work together in an open form to all, to find the most profitable way to succeed while understanding the needs of the workers, while government see how it can help without or little intervention.
#9 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 12:13 am
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@snowwolf7777 @snowwolf7777 Thanks for keeping it friendly. A anticapitalist antigovt type just went ballistic on me after a couple weeks worth of parlay.
My point on Europe’s example again is that there is a short history. Government mandates equates to government-corporate partnerships. Those shaking hands make off like bandits, but everyone else is limited to a contrived potential. Plus there is the problem with fiat currency, but that is another discussion.
#10 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 12:49 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 their is a third way, One were corporations are cheeked and mandated by the government. Without them conforming to the soviet model. Europe has been doing it for awhile and it’s time we created an American Cooperate reform.
#11 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 1:02 am
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@snowwolf7777 And government has never been capable of doing so without being in bed with corporations. You fail to see that. The only other way is to take control of industry and that did not work well the Soviet model. Also, you may be entranced by short-term ‘successes’ but you have never seen such a model you propose succeed for a 100 years. And what value was putting a man on the moon, other than penis envy? Tax productive people and you starve those you champion.
#12 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 1:05 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 and now we agree, I want to reform this government to tax the rich and actual provide for it’s people. Think of what the government can do or has done. From putting a man on the moon too provide us with what we now call the internet.
#13 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 2:02 am
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@snowwolf7777 No more than I trust the government. Government is a tool was the most poignant statement you have made in this debate. But not for the ‘people’. Anyone who believes it is either employed by the government or needs to expand their personal library.
People who make a lot of money typically have given up much. Those who are born with silver spoons don’t actually pay much in taxes. But those who work 16-hr days for years putting together a business are the ones who are harmed.
#14 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 2:38 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 Actual the Catholic church used money to pay for lawyer suit for protection of their own sexual abuse. I’m a Catholic ,but you think the church can be trusted with the health care of a nation is ridicules,
The government is a tool used for the people and is given to us as tax payers,it is not a charity or handout. Aren’t you being ridicules and saying that they take money for you. Considered what people have given up so that YOU can earn that fortune, it’s a small price to pay
#15 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 3:04 am
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@snowwolf7777 Oh no, no, no. Asking for help is actually virtuous. Admitting such a need takes strength…better than robbing someone. But a church raises money through voluntary donations. So all those free Catholic churches prior to the 70s gave free health care for those in need. Governments raise money through threat of force, or force if needed, and then redistribute it to corporate interests, all disguised as altruistic welfare.
#16 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 3:20 am
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@snowwolf7777 Life was easy before the plague? But you are misled if you think government cures disease or advances technology. But that is a whole different argument.
What single goal? Is it worth forcing people to work together towards this goal? Libertarians (not the beltway types) operate under the idea of no force. A world without force would be utopia. People work together to obtain personal goals…through mutual voluntary exchange. WIll it happen? No. But better than force.
#17 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 3:59 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 besides, aren’t you being hypocritical? Relying on a church for help, is the same as relying on the government. Government is in the public domain.
#18 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 4:38 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 “the problem” is your words, I’m thinking about the survival of the human race and the advancement of technology in the long run. Life is hard cruel and hard for many reasons, it’s been so since the plague but that’s no excuse for us to stop curing diseases of humanity. I’m not promising a utopia, but a system of individual working towards a single goal.
Your labeling my creation with terms of the 20th century, but my invention of a system is beyond words right now.
#19 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 5:09 am
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@snowwolf7777 Define “the problem” that needs solving by a Strong/Effective government…the truth of the matter is that individuals will always face problems. It is the COST of living. But individuals have shown to be capable of solving them when left to their own devices and personal connections. When individuals rely on a distant figure, they become incapable and dependent. And when people fall on hard times? The charity of Catholic and Mormon churches know no bounds.
#20 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 5:35 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 Actually you did, you but your spin on it. by saying that the government is taking your money,
even though it’s same government that create the environment to make your own fortune and fought for your right to do so and in return you refuse to give nothing back? isn’t that selfish?
See, that was a spin.
I’m arguing that small government will not fix the problem, strong and effective government will.
I respect Ron Paul, thought I wonder about some of is Allies to the GOP.
#21 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 6:07 am
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@snowwolf7777 I did not say taxes = fascism. The problem is that socialists fail to acknowledge value, and how to determine that value. Yes, there are European nations that can be pointed to as having ‘good’ economies and provide services to its people (quality apparently of no concern). But still, we are only talking about a very short history with ‘successful’ socialism, although employment rates are telling. My point of view states that fiat money and false value have short shelf lives.
#22 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 7:06 am
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@jimmyjoe1975 lol, paying taxes is not a link to fascism. Society must come as one, We need to understand the weakness in our material value and currency. Therefor, we must do all in our power to create a society that promotes the intellectual advancements of man, while protecting his human welfare and rights. Including Education, Health care, Food, Housing, Safety from both Physical and Mental harm and, a Clean and Attractive environment to share.
#23 by jimmyjoe1975 on August 16, 2010 - 7:15 am
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@snowwolf7777 Oh come now. What free market? Free markets reign in Somalia more so than in the USA. So how is one free if unable to own their labor, skills or knowledge? When the government determines how much you can keep, how you can spend, and where to stand in line, then you have crossed over from freedom to fascism.
#24 by snowwolf7777 on August 16, 2010 - 7:18 am
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@Me9231 I rather propose minor economic planing for new areas of industry (solar power, dams…ext) and have the gradually turn over to the privet section. This way we can create the foundation of a strong business that well be able to run independently and generate profit without harming cutting corners or damning the economic or natural environment.
#25 by Me9231 on August 16, 2010 - 8:01 am
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@snowwolf7777
The “Free” market was full of cheap, easy money from years of low interest rates from the FED. This is what caused the residential and commercial mortgage bubbles (and numerous other bubbles in the past). How can you call it the “free” market when we have so much govt intervention?
Granted we should have some regulations to protect the environment, securities investors, and child laborers, but central economic planning to the extent that we have now is going to cripple us.